Saturday, 16 August 2008

Comments from Lim Kit Siang's Blog

kanda Says:
August 14th, 2008 (2 days ago) at 14: 12.13

While freedom of speech is something that we should defend, as responsible people we must know when to stop, when not to offend others.What was the goal or intention of Bar Council when they planned the froum on Conversion to Islam?
Was it to vent their dissatisfaction and tell the world that they think Malaysian laws regarding conversion to Islam is unfair?Or maybe they want to say that it is wrong fro Islam to try and stop Muslims from converting to other faiths. Do note that the operative there is ‘try’.
Let us look at the process of conversion to Islam and try to understand how it works.
First we have to understand that Malaysia has a rather peculiar method of dealing with people who want to convert into Islam - we make it hard for people to join the faith.
While I do not personally agree with this I can understand theri rationale, the religious authorities do not want conversion to be a petty and casual decision, they wanto to make sure that the person converting has really changed their faith
Go to any religious department office to tell them that you want to be a Muslim and they will grill you to make sure that you are serious.Even after you have expresed your determination to become a Muslim, they would continue with their probe by telling you all the restrictions of the religion. They will tell you; You can’t eat pork, you can’t drink alcohol, you can’t sleep around, you have to pray five times a day or you will end up in Hell and basically tell you that Islam is quite a demanding faith.
If you still think that Islam is for you after hearing all the restrictions, they make you sit for religious classes so that the potential convert would be better prepared for life as a Muslim.
To give you an impression of how rigorous the religious education is, most converts enter the faith better equipped than a born Muslim who goes through the normal education system.
If their best effort to persuade you to reconsider your decision is nto successful and you manage to endure months of religious classes then they will accept your two shahadah, or proclamations of faith.
I do understand there may be difficulties when it comes to minors but the legislation and case history is quite clear, no one can make the decision to convert until they have come of age, in the case of children, parents can make the decision for them.
If you don’t agree parents cannot make decision on faith then you also have to accept that parents cannot make decisions on behalf of their children on anything else and where would we end up if this is the case.
Back to the conversion process.
I don’t agree with this rigorous screening because I think people should be allowed to enter the faith by just expressing intent and then making the proclamation but the authorities figured if it is going to be hard to leave, they want to make sure that you are truly convinced before admitting you into Islam.
Once the convert enters the faith they fall under the jurusdiction of the syariah court and they remain there until the court release them from their jursidiction. That is the law of the country.
While the Bar’s executive council may think that the law governing conversion into Islam is not to their liking, they should probably for a committee and find out if Malaysian lawyers think this is a problem.
Just because a few people in office don’t like the law, it does not mean that most of the legal profession agree with them.
If they find that the majority of Malaysian lawyers do not agree with the law then they should make a representation to the Minister responsible. Since Zaid Ibrahim is chummy with the Bar council these days, it should not be a problem.
Once the matter has been brought up, let the minister do his work and bring it up with the cabinet and wait for your cue from there.
It is likely that cabinet will decide that this is a matter that does not bear public discussion and I agree with them.
The issue of conversion to Islam should be determined by Muslims and no one else because I am sure that no one would like Muslims to have a forum on the validity of the holy trinity or have the Malays old a forum on the rights of non Malays in Malaysia.
Who is to say the bar council’s topic for discussion is more valid than the two that I suggested?
The only thing we know for sure, these are sensistive subjects and we really do not want it to be discussed in public.
The Bar Council President is showing surprising shallowness by insisting that the forum goes ahead, as if she does not realise or perhaps does not care about who she offends.
Malays, rightly or wrongly, do not take issues that that concern their faith lightly. Conversion does not form the core of their concerns but it does mark the outer limits of their teolerance. I know no Muslim family that would allow a family member from leaving the religion without fighting it to the end. Conversion away from islam is probably the worst thing that could happen to a Muslim.
Conversion into Islam is celebrated as the end of ignorance, it is a happy occasion.
The thing is we understand if you want to convince your family members not to become a Muslim but don’t put your nose in the administration of Islam.
This is really not a subject for open discussion.
# Godfather Says:
August 14th, 2008 (2 days ago) at 18: 15.19

This person Kanda is really talking cock. First of all, the forum was not an “open” forum in the true sense of the word. Attendees have to register and pay a fee. Yes, it was open to the public in terms of attendance but only upon registration. Once the forum commences, the doors were closed.

The problem is that once there was knowledge that such a forum was going to take place, these extremists were never going to allow it to happen. Tomorrow if there were 10 of us going to have a roundtable discussion on the same subject, these guys will find a way, with the connivance of the police, to disrupt it.

Certain people in PAS have said that the forum should have been allowed to happen. Anwar has said that the discussion should have been allowed. Who are you to say that it is really not a subject for open discussion ? What are you so fearful of ? Inability to refute the comments or inability to control your emotions ?
# ReformMalaysia Says:
August 14th, 2008 (2 days ago) at 21: 18.35

Can we call LAW in the country as Law when not everyone in the country are applied with the same LAW?
# katdog Says:
August 14th, 2008 (2 days ago) at 23: 36.07

I agree Kanda is talking cock.

“I am sure that no one would like Muslims to have a forum on the validity of the holy trinity…”

Firstly, the forum is to discuss the legal obligations when a person converts to Islam. No one is discussing the ‘validity of Islam’. Only the opportunists who want to fan religious sentiments are so quick to jump and claim that this forum is anti-Islam.

“…but don’t put your nose in the administration of Islam.”
Well said Kanda. Again the sentiments of those seeking to use Islam as spring board to get popular support and to fool those who are not so mature and critical in their thoughts. Again no one is telling you how to administer Islam. I think the discussion is on the legal implications of one converting to Islam.

“This is really not a subject for open discussion.”
And i believe this is what was the main purpose of the forum. To gauge the maturity of the Malaysian society is engaging people of different faiths and religion to have a meaningful discussion. And as Kanda has shown, Malaysian society is not yet ready, preferring to hide behind statements of “this subject is not open to discussion”.
# undergrad2 Says:
Yesterday at 23: 46.23

katdog Says:

Yesterday at 23: 36.07
I agree Kanda is talking cock.

Kanda has evey right to ‘talk cock’. His cock ups are his to make.
# lopez Says:
Today at 07: 54.18 (6 hours ago)

A bunch of weeds tied together can never be as strong as a bunch of bamboo.
So what are u , weeds or bamboo?

only culturally strong values inherent to you developed by your forefathers and his forefathers and his his forefathers gives you the direction and focus of who you are today.

if at some point of time you got misled either due to peer pressure or miseducated and misinformed you shall be that torn and sorry doom of your offsprings future.

Beautifully planned and strong armed executed presented in the manner of limited choices you shall be influenced and bound into admission.
Stricken by natural instinct for food on the table you subdue your forefathers values in return of short term gains.
You have sold your soul and any remains of.
For those who have been to heaven and or hell, please share your expereinces, for those who want to go to these , please get it from the horse mouths , get the original and not second hand information.

religions also have marketing plans too , their promotions are pepetual , but you have to qualify…..conditions apply….

Wow, got free gift or lot …..and actually yes …..

So spiritually submissions/admissions = materially gain or another form reimbursed.

dont sweep this under the carpet, it is too filt up already, and no more space.

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